Emily: Where were you born and when?
Stacie: Ok, well I was born in Salt Lake City, Utah in LDS Hospital. April 12th, 1968.
E: So you lived in Cottonwood Heights your entire childhood, correct?
S: Yep.
E: What do you remember most about your childhood?
S: Well when I was really young, just you know, playing with friends in the neighborhood kind of like a normal kid. Going to school, I walked to school because we lived pretty close to the Elementary School. So yeah I mostly just remember friends and school, and my family had pretty basic routines. Every Friday night we went out to dinner, because my mom worked, so that was a break for her. We always went out to dinner on Friday night and then stopped at the grocery store and did the grocery shopping, and then watched stuff together as a family. You know, when I was young and didn’t hang out with friends yet.
E: You’re friends still with a lot of your High School friends, right?
S: Yeah, most of the them I knew from Elementary School.
E: I feel like that’s pretty rare, I feel like people tend to lose connection with their friends from Elementary School and High School.
S: Yeah probably, like lose touch. Yeah it is pretty rare, so other than Lisa- we met her in Junior High, because she had moved there- all my other friends that I still get together with, I’ve known since like First Grade.
E: And a lot of them were in your ward, right, or were there two separate groups?
S: Yeah none of them were in my ward, a lot were in my stake, I did have friends in my ward. I wasn’t as much friends with them in Elementary, because I went to a different Elementary than most of the other kids my age in my ward.
E: Oh, weird.
S: It was weird, because it did separate us, because they all knew each other from school. So, eventually there were one or two other my age that went to my Elementary. So it was more when we got into Young Womens that I got to be friends with the girls in my ward. Once we were in Junior High, then we were in the same school and in Young Womens. Then we kind of gelled, and they were actually, well I hung out with both of them throughout Junior High and High School, but my ward friends became closer to them in High School, but I was still friends with those other friends. And then now, you know I still go to lunch with both groups, occasionally. I see my Elementary type friends more now, than the other group. I only see them around once a year, because people live farther apart.
E: What was your favorite vacation when you were like a kid? Like what was the best vacation you took with your family?
S: Well we always did go on one summer vacation. Some were local, like just around Utah, maybe to Vernal or St. George and Moab, those kind. I do remember once or twice going to California, and going to stay in Las Vegas overnight on the way there, and go to Disneyland. We did that about twice. My uncle was a pilot, and so once or twice he got us a deal. Probably the farthest we went was, we went to Canada, to Vancouver. You know, using whatever deal he got us to fly. And then we might have flown once to California with his help. The most exotic was when I graduated from High School, we went to Hawaii. That was probably the biggest trip we took as a family.
E: Your whole family went right? Like you took Kyle?
S: Yeah we brought him with us. Besides that, nothing too major. Just California, and around Utah, and Idaho. We always did something every summer. You know I always remember riding in the backseat with my brother, fighting over like crossing the line or whatever. But yeah, so we just went different places. Yeah probably California and Hawaii and Vancouver were the most memorable.
E: Those were the most interesting places.
S: Yeah.
E: What did your parents do for their jobs, and what were they like when you were young?
S: My mom was a nurse, when I was really young she actually worked as a nurse in a hospital. And at times she worked night shifts, probably so she could be home with us during the day.
E: Before you were in Elementary School?
S: No this was in Elementary. I think she was home until I was in 2nd or 3rd grade-ish.
E: Would that have been when Kyle started Elementary School?
S: Well he was six years younger than me, so he might have been in Pre-School still. Yeah so she would work, that’s probably why she worked nights, so she could be home with him when he was little and I was in school. I think it was around 3rd grade when she started working during the day, and so then I became what people called then a “latch-key kid”, which means that when you come home from school, no one’s home. I was pretty young, what are you eight or nine in 3rd grade? I’d be home alone for a few hours, my dad was a school teacher. He taught Junior High Science at Bonneville Junior High, and he probably was home by like 4:30 because of that type of job. I was probably alone for an hour and a half or something. And then later, my mom, I don’t remember exactly how old I was, she started teaching at BYU. Teaching nursing.
E: She commuted to Provo?
S: Well at first she taught at the Salt Lake extension. They had, kind of in the Sugar House area, there’s a building they have there where students can take classes, she did that for a long time so that wasn’t too bad. But eventually they shut that program down, for the nursing at least, and then she did have to commute to Provo two or three times a week. And then she’d be home all the other days. But my dad stayed at Bonneville Junior the whole time.
E: Where did your parents go to college?
S: They both went to the University of Utah. I think my dad when to BYU for maybe a semester or two, but he graduated from the U.
E: What traits do you think you inherited from your parents? Which do you view as your strengths and which do you view as your weaknesses?
S: Well, they were very, I mean they were kind and loving, but also very stoic, you know kind of didn’t show a lot of emotion. I mean interestingly, even though my mom, what she taught at BYU was psychiatric nursing, like psychology, so nursing people who have psychological problems. And she taught like community health nursing as well. Even though she was trained in psychological issues, and they were always loving they’d hug me and kiss me good-bye at night or when I left the house, but probably just because of their generation, they weren’t too in-tune with like how people felt, or how things made them feel. Even as a young person sometimes I expressed feeling down or depressed to my mom and she would say “Oh you’re too young for that”. Kind of dismissive of those kinds of things, which was interesting I was thinking the other day because she was trained in that. So I think that was partly generational, because they were a lot older than my other friend’s parents.
E: They were 40 when they got married right?
S: My mom was like 37 or 38 when she got married, 39 when she had me, so they were in their early 40s when they were starting to have kids. So, they were even I think a generation ahead of most of my friends parents. And they had grey hair by the time I was in 5th grade, people thought they were my grandparents a lot of times. So they were kind and loving, they were very structured and simple in many ways, we didn’t like have a lot of people over very often. They were just kind of simple, kept to their routines.
E: Where did you go to college?
S: I went to BYU, for the entire time.
E: What were your favorite classes you took there? Were there any that really stood out to you?
S: Well I started, I was going to major in Early Childhood Education, and teach like Pre-School and stuff, so I really liked the classes in Children’s Literature. That’s one of my favorite things. There was a Children’s Music class I took, stuff like that. But then I switched to Communications, because I also liked business. So there were some business and advertising classes I liked, but other than that, I took General-Ed basically until I got into my major. I took an Interior Design, that was a fun class. It probably filled a general class, but it was fun to learn. So yeah, other than that it was pretty much the basic science and english, that kind of stuff.
E: Did you feel any pressure to go to BYU, as an LDS person in Utah?
S: I don’t remember it being an issue, I think I just always wanted to go there and planned to go there.
E: Even when you were a kid? Even though your parents went to the University of Utah?
S: Yeah, I mean they were BYU fans, not that it matters who you cheer for, by the time I went to college my mom had been teaching at BYU for years, my dad was a huge BYU fan for sports. I guess that was part of our family culture, we were a BYU family. I grew up going to the games, every Saturday there was a home game. So out of however many, six or seven Saturdays every fall. I didn’t love it, but that’s just what we did because my mom got a deal on the tickets from working there, and my dad loved it. So we’d pack lunches and we’d sit there, I’d bring my homework a lot of times by the time I was in Junior High and High School and had homework. That’s what we did. Yeah I guess I never really had any second thoughts about going anywhere else. It just seemed natural.
E: Did you apply anywhere else?
S: Probably. But I honestly don’t even remember. I remember getting flooded with mail when I was a senior.But I don’t remember if I actually applied anywhere else.
E: What talents do you wish you had explored or improved on, when you were a kid or when you were in college?
S: Well I regret not sticking with the major in like either Early-Childhood or Elementary Education, because I think I would have liked doing that. So that’s probably my biggest regret, not sticking with that and I played the piano growing up. I could have been better. It’s one of those things, because I was coming home by myself everyday, unfortunately it was easy for me to lie as a kid, if my mom asked me if I practiced. I would sometimes, but not every day. Because you know, as a kid you just watch TV or whatever. I could have been better at the piano if I had put more time into it and stuff like that. I always wish I had a skill that I could do like that. So yeah, wishing I had majored in something else and also being better at the piano.
E: When you were young, like Elementary School or Junior High age, was there something you wanted to be? Like do you remember thinking “I want to be this when I grow up”?
S: A schoolteacher. I always grew up, which again feeds to my regrets, because when I was little, I always played school. I went to elaborate efforts, I’d make little booklets, I’d make five or six or eight, I’d make little booklets for my pretend students. This was when I was pretty little or early Elementary School, but I loved setting up stuffed animals. I loved to play school, for years I would idolize teachers. That’s probably the thing that I wanted to do.
E: What pressures or what things drove you to choosing advertising in the end?
S: I was interested in business as well in late high school and college, business-type things, and I probably let other people dissuade me, just dumb little comments. I remember being at work in our break room when I worked at Dans, some other college-age people were in there, and they were just saying “business is the thing to be in”. They weren’t attacking me personally, they didn’t know what I wanted to do. But they were just mentioning that. And I think Uncle Nick once, I mentioned to him once that I was doing Early-Childhood Education, and he was like laughing at me for it. A few little comments like that, unfortunately, if I had been a stronger, if I had known myself better at that age I could have stuck with what I liked. But a few comments like that just made me rethink I guess, like “Oh I better do something more, that seems more…” I don’t know. Which is silly, like to do it to impress people. That’s why now I feel like, telling people like my kids, you should do what you like. Do what you love. Because that’s what you’ll be the most interested in. Unfortunately those little comments, it wasn’t my parents or anybody like that. And I remember struggling. I would pray like “what should I major in”, I struggled with that a lot. But yeah, just little comments like that persuaded me to change, which is unfortunate.
E: Right now at BYU there’s like a culture, people say this kind of often, either women are asked this or women say this that “It doesn’t matter what you major in, because you’re just going to be a stay-at-home mom anyways.” What are you thoughts on that, and was that an idea that was a thing when you were at BYU? Because it was before the 2000s, but it’s interesting to me that that idea has pervaded into today. I think part of that is the Church culture too, because women are encouraged to be stay-at-home moms, and the emphasis is on raising children and stuff. So I just think that’s an interesting thing that is still at BYU and I’m wondering if that was a thing when you were there.
S: Yeah for sure, I mean it was for sure like “It doesn’t matter what you do, hopefully you’ll just get married you know”.
E: Right.
S: So yeah, it’s interesting that’s still there. I think that’s a double-edged sword, that question, because I think in younger people, I see people pursuing things they love or are interested in, and I think it’s important to have a marketable skill. And in today’s world, it is hard to make it on one income, I think a lot of women are going to have to work more or at least find something to do part time or out of their home. And the better educated you are, it just raises your family, it becomes a family culture thing I think, so if you have an education it affects your children and things like that, and the way your family culture is. So there’s that, but also, the other side is, what hasn’t changed is we do value, as a Church, a stay-at-home moms and people who value raising their children. I worry that younger people are discounting that more as an important thing. Because until you have a child you don’t realize this, but no one, no one, no matter how well they’re paid, are ever going to take as good of care of your children, or care. Like if you have a babysitter all day long, they aren’t going to be sitting there thinking “Oh I want to make sure she knows her colors and numbers and ABCs,” and all this stuff, they don’t care.
E: They might be doing just the bare minimum to get paid.
S: Yeah, they’re doing the bare minimum. They’re going to keep them safe, right, and fed and changed or whatever, but no one’s going to take the interest that a mother will in their child. So it’s a double edged sword, we wanna still value that, and that’s why we’ve made a conscious decision, Dad and I, to have me stay home with you guys. But it’s also harder in today’s economy to make it, especially young people with a little baby or two. So I think both for women’s own benefit, just simply, getting an education is important, being educated and having a skill, and also to be able to contribute. It may be almost impossible for most people to get by on one income. But you don’t want to not value the idea of someone staying home and raising their children. So it’s hard. But yeah, I think definitely that was a thing, there was the joke that, when I was that age, that you were going to get your MRS degree at BYU. The idea was that you just go along until you get married, and sadly a lot of girls didn’t finish after they got married.
E: I feel like that’s less a thing like today, I feel like people still finish, but maybe not in something that they’re like “this could be something I could do.” It’s more like “Ok I’m just finishing so I can start a family and be married.”
S: Yeah that’s interesting that that’s still a thing. Which is sad, because you want people to be educated, and in something they want to do and can do. But like I said, you hate to see people devalue the idea of staying home and taking care of your children. So it’s a hard one.
E: Yeah, because BYU’s like montra I guess, is the “Enter to Learn, Go Forth to Serve.” And I feel like if you’re an educated person it’s that much easier to go out and serve people, because you have that education and you have that knowledge and that skill to go do that.
S: And it’s just a natural practical thing, the better education you have the better earning ability you have, and the better earning ability you have, the more freedom you have to serve people. You look at Dad, with a Ph.D., and he has the type of job where he has the flexibility and he can help if he needs to. He can help during the day with the family, or the ward, or his mom recently. You just, it’s not all about money, but it does give you more options, education.
E: In the past you have expressed interest in going back to get a degree in Education. So what has stopped you in the past from doing that, and do you think you’ll go back after Rachel is gone, like when she turns 18 and is out of the house?
S: Yeah I mean age is becoming a factor at this point, I’m 50. I most seriously started thinking about it 3 years ago, but then when we knew we were going to London, what I would have to do is like a 2-year program at BYU to get what they call a Post Baccalaureate Degree, like you already have a Bachelor’s Degree, but you’re getting certified in something else. I don’t have to go through all the Generals again, I just need to take the teaching stuff. But it was a 2-year program and if I would had started it the year before London I would have been interrupted going there, and so I don’t know, just circumstances and then maybe my own unwillingness to just dive in. Now I’m Young Women’s President, it would be really hard, I’ve just had circumstances I guess, like before that I was taking care of my parents. Just circumstances, and maybe other people are better at just jumping in and doing it.
E: You do have a lot going on with your calling and all that stuff.
S: Yeah, and so now I feel like by the time I get done being the Young Women’s President I’ll be like 53. And if I go to the program, is someone going to hire me when I’m 55? Even though I probably have 10 years still. You know a few years ago I thought “Well if I did it now, I’d still have like 15 years of working”. So I just don’t know, you know if I would be hireable. So yeah it’s hard to know what to do now.
E: Would you ever be interested in substituting?
S: Well a lot of my friends do that. And I was going to say earlier, for that other question, out of my friends from High School, I would say a little more than half finished college. But there are you know a handful that didn’t, because they got married.
E: Was it because they had children? Or just because they got married?
S: Well it was probably children that sort of stopped the schooling. I did want to add that because it kind of speaks to that question you were asking. So I’d say not a full half, but definitely a handful of them didn’t finish college. Anyway, sorry so what was the last part of that question?
E: Would you be interested in substituting? Because you would have that education part, but you wouldn’t have to do the whole, everything with that.
S: Well a lot of my friends do that right now. I don’t know, I haven’t loved the idea, because I would want to have my own classroom and plan things. That’s what I’ve always wanted to do. So as a substitute you don’t get that.
E: Yeah you’re just following a lesson plan.
S: Yeah, and I also, I guess, I’m kind of a structured person and so it would be stressful to me to just find out the night before that I had to work tomorrow. Like if I was planning on doing something else. So again maybe once I’m done with this calling, if I’m just a little more free during the day. Like right now I feel like there’s certain things I have to do to get ready for Wednesday or whatever, you know it would be hard to not know from day to day if you’re working or not.
E: Yeah that would be kind of discombobulating.
S: Yeah so, I haven’t loved that idea for those reasons. I wouldn’t really feel like a teacher.
E: Yeah that would be weird.
S: It’s not really like having a class, you’re not planning anything. Because that’s what interests me is planning the curriculum and trying to, you know watching kids like learn and progress.
E: Right you wouldn’t have that connection with the class. Because you’d only be there for a couple of hours.
S: Yeah so it doesn’t appeal to me, unless I just needed to make money.
E: If you were to go get your Education degree, and go teach, do you have a grade in mind?
S: Yeah, Kindergarten. I love Kindergarten.
E: So you could do the Pre- what’s it called?
S: Early Childhood Education.
E: Yeah.
S: I think that covers Kindergarten.
E: Yeah I think that’s Preschool through like 2nd Grade. And that’s all you can teach, so they can’t like shift you to like 6th Grade. Which a lot of teachers are like “I don’t to teach those older grades.”
S: Yeah I don’t enjoy the older Elementary.
E: Right.
S: I have some friends that are opposite, like I can’t stand teaching the older kids. I mean I like teenagers, but not, older Elementary doesn’t appeal to me.
E: What’s your first memory of dad? Like my dad.
S: Well his family moved in next door to my family when we were about 14. And I remember first of all hearing that they were gonna move in and that they had a 14 year old son. So then of course at that age you’re like “ooooh good!” And then my first memory of him was that he would always be outside playing basketball in their driveway.
E: Sounds about right.
S: Yeah I just remember if I was walking down the street to go somewhere, or something, he was always out playing basketball. But the first time we probably got to know each other was, we both worked at Dans, at the grocery store together in the neighborhood. And that’s when we actually connected more and got to know each other. Because before that I don’t remember talking much other than, I remember I’d sometimes say hi when I waked by when he was playing basketball, and it felt like he didn’t even acknowledge me.
E: What was your favorite or most memorable date you guys went on before you got married, like when you were dating?
S: Our first date was Junior Prom so that was pretty memorable. Yeah because it was a big event and everything. But yeah I mean sometimes we’d just do fun things like go up the canyon, or go play miniature golf, or go to movies I mean we just kind of did normal things. Or we’d just walk around. We used to walk around our neighborhood a lot, just go to parks and hang out or whatever. Just because yeah you don’t have money, like in the summer. We’d just walk around. There were several parks we could walk to. So we did that a lot.
E: How did your family first react to dad when you guys were dating and getting serious? And what were your impressions of dad’s family? Because you knew them when you were growing up next to each other kind of.
S: By the time we dated, they had moved. They were still in our ward, but they had moved over a few blocks to a different house. So we weren’t next door anymore. Well my parents kind of were, you probably know the story, but their view of him was a little tainted because when they did live next door to us, he and his brothers and Kyle didn’t get along. And one time they gave Kyle a swirly. You know which my mom was not happy about, and so you know I think she had feelings that way, and they weren’t too thrilled when he asked to the prom. I don’t think they were too thrilled about that. But you know eventually they came around. And they were never like lovey dovey to each other, dad and them, but they were kind and welcoming. But yeah they were never soulmates or anything.
E: So what about your impressions of his family?
S: I thought they were a stellar family. I was excited to be part of that family. His mom was always a dynamic person, always in leadership positions and very kind of high profile with music and so I looked up to them, I think that’s probably the word, I looked up to them.
E: How did you know that dad was who you were going to marry? Was there a specific moment where you were like “I’m gonna marry this guy”?
S: Yeah probably not one specific moment, but just if I was on dates with other people, I didn’t feel comfortable or like, it sounds weird, but like not at home. So I felt like I was at home when I was with him, but not with other people. And so you know and then we broke up for a while, but when we got back together it felt like home again. So I guess I don’t remember one specific lightbulb moment.
E: There wasn’t like one big moment.
S: Yeah. Because we had known each other for so long before we got married. We had known each other for seven years, or something. And we’d already had history you know. I guess it just felt natural, and I mean I think I still prayed about it and stuff.
E: When he proposed did you say yes immediately?
S: I did.
E: He proposed in the basement of your house right?
S: Yeah.
E: So when did you guys get married?
S: We got married July 25th, 1990. On a hot summer day.
E: You got married at the Salt Lake Temple right?
S: Salt Lake Temple yeah. Then we had a wedding breakfast at the Lion House, there on Temple Square and then had a wedding reception at a place called the Old Meeting House, in the Sugar House area.
E: You guys have lived in a variety of places since you’ve been married. What was your favorite place to live, and why? And what were the people like there?
S: Different places were favorites for different reasons. We first lived in just this little tiny apartment on State Street in Midvale, and that was just functional. But then we moved up to the U and my friend Lisa and her husband Paul lived there and we were in their ward, and so that was a favorite because it was fun to be in the ward with them, and there were just, everyone was young couples in that ward. That was a fun ward. It was a bit of a struggle for me because everyone was having kids and I couldn’t have kids, I mean I was having trouble getting pregnant. That was a little hard because everybody seemed to be having their kids and stuff. But it was fun, it was a fun ward. Also Maryland, then we moved to Maryland for dad to go to graduate school, and I really liked that ward, we made a lot of good friends and we’re still friends with some people. Because a lot of people in that ward were out there for school, so everyone was away from home, everyone our age. And so they became like our family out there. We spent holidays with a lot of people, I mean we’d fly home for Christmas a lot, but say like Thanksgiving or whatnot we would spend with friends and that was fun. Or like the Fourth of July we’d all go over to campus and they’d have fireworks. We had traditions with people in that ward because we didn’t have family, so that was a fun place to live.
E: Was there any point in your life when you wanted to be a working mom? Or did you always know you were going to be a stay-at-home mom?
S: Well I grew up kind of idolizing women in my ward that were stay-at-home moms. I don’t know, I always just had a really strong desire to have children and be a mom. Which may have been part of why I had trouble figuring out what to major in because my main thing was that I wanted to do that. I didn’t ever want to work because I wanted to work, I was panicked sometimes that I would need to work just for money, because we were still in graduate school by the time you were born. And I was planning even to work part-time after you were born, but just with different thing, you had some not major health problems but just stuff, and anyways as soon as you were born I was like “no I can’t leave her”. So I decided not to do the part-time. My work was going to try to work with me and create a part-time position.
E: That’s when you worked at the Capitol right?
S: Yeah, and it just felt daunting to me to have to commute in there every day and leave you with someone. Who would I leave you with? So I was happy, and it ended up working out that we, up until that point we hadn’t had to take any student loans out for graduate school, and by then he only had about two years left I think, so we were able to take out some student loans that got us through financially. So I didn’t have to work, and then I was just as happy to not. I know a lot of people are like “I’ve gotta still work, and I gotta still do my thing,” but I wasn’t like that. But I know I’m unusual.
E: So during college you went on a study abroad to Jerusalem. Why did you choose that,
and what were your experiences like when you were there?
S: I don’t know, it’s a good question why I chose that.
E: Because there are so many study abroad programs at BYU.
S: Yeah it’s a good question. I don’t know why I chose that one specifically. I just thought it sounded neat to go over there and learn stuff. Maybe for religious reasons and stuff. Because I don’t remember looking into other ones or anything. Well to me at that age, I really craved like adventure and excitement, and it was so different there. I mean it’s this beautiful, ancient city with so many cool things to see. We lived in the BYU Jerusalem Center. It was a beautiful building, at the time it was only maybe 3 or 4 years old, so it was new and beautiful. I’m sure it still is. And we could just walk down to the old city and it just seemed so adventurous, this whole different culture where you could barter for things. We thought that was so cool, bartering for things you bought. You know there were interesting things, sad things, it was sad to see the conflict between the Arabs and the Israelis, and there were Israeli soldiers all over the place with big machine guns. So that was weird, even just I remember sitting on a bus one day and you know how there are seats on buses that face each other, and there was a soldier across from me. I realized at one point, I was like “my leg is touching a machine gun”, because it was crowded and that doesn’t happen in Utah. It became normal. It was sad to see the problems there, cool to study especially Church history there, the Old and New Testament. So I’ve always remembered and been able to picture places when I study the scriptures and stuff. It was an adventure!
E: Because it is such a different culture, how did the people who were natives and people who lived there respond to you as a group? Like the BYU students as a group, because I’m sure the majority of you were White. And very American. Especially how did they respond to the women? Because they have such different views of women over there.
S: Well, good question. We had to do certain things, like you couldn’t wear shorts and things obviously, because of the culture there. You couldn’t date there, a lot of study abroads have that rule, there was no like holding hands and things like that that would be more American that would offend their culture. But also, yeah, you were treated by men there, because their only view of America was through TV, and so they had a view that all American women were very loose. And so there were times where you’d be walking through the old city, especially like the Arab men, people would come up and grab you. Girls were even just kissed, people would walk up and kiss them.
E: In your program?
S: Yes. And they knew, because there were constant rotations of students, they knew who we were. They’d say “Hello BYU!”, they knew from our faces, probably because we were White and young, and they said there was a light in our eyes. They would always say that. So they responded, that way was positive. I just remember a lot of shopkeepers “Hello BYU!”. And they knew you had money, you were there as a tourist kind of, in their eyes, they knew that you were going to buy stuff. But they did have a view that women were just loose and whatever, and maybe that partly is their own culture. Their women aren’t loose, but that idea that men you know can do whatever they want.
E: Yeah like the objectification and sexualization of women.
S: Yeah, like in a lot of those cultures, not in Israel, but some of those Middle Eastern countries, I mean the women who wear the whole keffiyehs and cover everything. It’s kind of like, “It’s your fault that you’re attractive to me, so you cover yourself up”. You know like “I can’t control myself, you have to control me by covering up”.
E: Yeah, which is a very pervasive idea throughout all of the world. The idea that it’s the women’s fault it’s not the man’s fault, that they are attracted to you and they lust after you.
S: Yeah, so they would sometimes be very free with touching and trying to grab you, yeah so that was interesting, and yeah there were positives and negatives. Because they would often talk to us about the light in our eyes. And they would even, like a lot of the olive wood, that’s a big thing to buy over there is olive wood things, they would even carve things, they knew their audience, they would carve like BYU Cougars. Or you know like statues of things that are LDS, like a woman praying.
E: They knew who they were selling to.
S: Yeah so they would carve things that represented our culture, because they knew we would probably buy it. So it was interesting, they definitely, the center is a presence over there.
E: Yeah they knew who you were.
S: Yeah!
E: Cool! So has anyone ever told you you can’t do something because you’re a woman? Like is there anything that really stands out to you, that you’re like this was a moment where someone said “Because you’re a woman you cannot do this”?
S: No I don’t think so, not personally. No one ever made me feel like I was stopped because of that, you know. But then I wasn’t trying to be too ambitious either. I wasn’t trying to…
E: Break into a man’s world or anything like that.
S: Yeah. I mean you know, no one ever said anything, but definitely when I was taking business classes at BYU, there were very few girls in those classes. But no one ever said, you know, anything.
E: So you kind of already talked about this, but like if you could give your daughters advice about college and choosing what to study, what would you tell us? You kind of talked about this a little bit earlier.
S: Well, because of my experience, I would definitely say choose something you enjoy or love, and don’t worry so much about “Oh will I be able to get a job?”. Because it seems like if you have a passion for something, opportunities open up. And also, what I’ve also tried to do, because I felt like there was no one to help me, I just wished someone would say to me “You’re really good at this, you should do this” or whatever. And maybe I wasn’t good enough at anything that stood out, that anyone would say that, but I tried to watch you guys as you grow up and see what you seem to be interested in or are good at, so that I could perhaps help guide you. If you know like you seem to be really good at this, or you seem to really like that, if that would help. Because I just feel like there was no one. I mean sometimes you’ll hear about people who you know get called into a Professor’s office, and they say “Oh, you should do this!”, or whatever. And I just always wished someone would even say, even in passing, like “You’re really good at this”, because I always felt like I struggled to know what to do. So that’s the other half of it is not being the kind of parent who’s like forcing you guys to do something, that I think you should do, but encouraging you to do what you love. But also trying to look for things to help if you’re struggling, to help guide you.
E: I feel like there’s a lot of connotations and ideas around the word “feminism”, and it’s kind of become warped in some people’s minds. So what do you, like if someone says the word “feminism”, what’s the first thing you think of?
S: Well yeah it can have a negative connotation, thinking about, I guess I don’t think completely negative when someone is a feminist. You know that they mean they want rights for women, and that’s good, but it can be taken to an extreme. The worst part of taking it to an extreme is becoming haters of men. I mean, what we want is equality, we don’t want one to be better than the other, or hate each other, and that’s swinging the pendulum too far. So what you want is equality, like you want to be paid equally for doing the same type of work, which is probably still a huge problem. Or treated equally. But there are issues, like especially in the workplace, like men don’t physically have babies, so they do have different issues with a work situation, as far as maternity leave and stuff like that. So that’s where it’s taken too far is when people start like hating men or bashing on men, so you want equality. I mean it kind of can have a negative connotation, but it’s also good because you do want to stand up for rights. Like I think, I don’t generally agree with Hillary Clinton, but I heard a quote once that she said “Women’s rights are the unfinished business of the 20th Century”. And I think that’s perfectly true, like we’re not done fixing a lot of these inequalities, and the way women are treated in other countries way worse than here, so I think that’s a good way to put it, it’s the unfinished business, there’s still a lot to do to create equality and respect, and I’m sure even take away fear. There are I’m sure a lot of women who live in fear.
E: You said, like there are the physical differences, where women’s can have children, and men don’t. And I’ve, like you hear stories where women aren’t promoted because there’s the fear that they’re going to go on maternity leave, and they’re going to like abandon their position. Do you that is sexism at work, or do you think that is just like the business of business?
S: Right. Well I mean I guess it’s a reality, but it’s also, I mean you shouldn’t just be discounted because of that. But it’s true, if you have a baby you need to physically recover, you know. You need to have time, so I don’t know, it ends up being a reality, but it’s unfortunate because it shouldn’t stop people from being promoted.
E: It’s like the glass ceiling that women can’t get through.
S: Right, because they have the same ability to do well in jobs. So yeah, like I said, that whole thing is a double edged sword. Not valuing the idea of taking care of your children, but also valuing women and what they can contribute, and that they’re just as capable of doing any job.
E: You kind of talked about this already, but there’s this idea of “post-feminism”, where there’s a group of women that say “we have achieved equality, we are there, we have done everything we need to do”. How do you feel about that? Do you think that a lot of progress has been made? Do you think we have achieved gender equality? If not, what do you think we still need to make progress in?
S: Well yeah I think it’s similar to like racism. You could say we have come a long way in the last several decades or the last century. But there’s still a lot to be done. I think it depends on people’s individual views, but sometimes those individual views can become collective views, in society. Yeah it’s hard to know what, like for instance, one company might treat the women in their company equally and pay them equally, another one might not. So it depends on people individual views, so I don’t know what will fix things, other than people individually trying to be more I guess educated and being fair. And I don’t know how to fix that, whether it’s in racial issues or women’s rights issues. Because we have come a long way with a lot of people’s attitudes and legislation, but it’s hard to make people feel individually a certain way. Or a company for instance, or a community.
E: What messages about women do you think the Church portrays? Do you ever feel stifled by the Church because you’re a woman? Do you think it’s unfair that man have the responsibility of priesthood keys, while women have been given the responsibility of other things?
S: Yeah I have generally not felt stifled, and I feel like I’ve tried to understand the eternal principle of separate but equal responsibilities. I don’t think in God’s view or in the leadership of the Church’s view that women are less, or anything like that. So I think that’s like an eternal principle, that they’re not thought of as less. But again individual people, husbands or priesthood leaders, can have their opinions, so it depends how a certain person behaves. So you could have a Bishop who may treat people like they’re less, or you might have a Bishop who’s very equal about things, or any people you work with. What I know I told, one time I was talking to Patrick and Melissa, they were asking me some of these things, because I’m pretty traditional about things, and I don’t feel like there needs to be radical change. And so what I told them was, yeah sometimes I get irritated by people in the Church, especially for a leadership position when you’re working with, and you’re in meetings and stuff. But no more than I would with any other group. Like if you’re working in a PTA group, you’re sometimes going to get annoyed with people. Or at work you’re going to get annoyed with people because they don’t see things exactly how you would. So I don’t feel like I’ve ever been personally put down because I’m a woman, or not listened to per se. But again it depends on people’s individual personalities, and their feelings. Yeah the things that have upset me haven’t been necessarily because I’m a woman. I think the Church is trying really hard to address, maybe in the last 5 years or less, to address any little things that may have been seen as an inequality. Like the man has to speak last in sacrament meeting, usually if it was a husband and wife or any other situation the man would speak last. Or women didn’t use to pray in General Conference. I think they’re trying to look at all those little things and say “Yeah why do we do that? That’s not doctrine.” Like let’s just make it equal, I think they’re looking for equalities. Short of giving women the priesthood. And I feel like, and I’ve had a lot of leadership positions, and I don’t want more. I don’t want to be the Bishop. I don’t know the reasons for some of those things, but I’ve just tried to have faith and trust that there is a reason for those separate responsibilities. And maybe it will change one day, some people think it will. But I do think they’re trying to equalize anything. I think it’s going forward even more, I think they’re going to equalize the youth more, so that the Young Men and Young Women have equal programs. Because there’s been a lot of complaints that people spend more money on the boys, all their scouting outings and things. I really do think they’re trying to equalize things.
E: I think President Nelson has been a big part of that. Maybe it’s just that this is the time, but the things with the endowments being changed in the temple, and the General Women’s Conference being the same weekend as the Priesthood session was.
S: Yes, creating an equal thing.
E: I think something interesting with the Women’s Conference, that’s now the same weekend, a lot of people, I think it was kind of split. Some women were like “Yes! It’s finally equal, it’s the same as when the Priesthood was, and now it’s an equal amount.” But a lot of people were less thrilled, because even with the Women’s Conference, the majority of the speakers were male. There were only three women. So what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that makes it not a “Women’s Conference” that there were so many more male?
S: Yeah, they usually have one woman from each auxiliary, Relief Society, Young Women, and Primary, speak. So that seems reasonable. Usually in the past though, it’s just been one First Presidency member speak, so it was surprising that they had two this time. So I don’t know, so are you saying it should be only women speakers? I don’t know because on the one hand it’s like we value you, they still are the priesthood leaders, like we value you to be here and be part of this Conference. And I mean women speak in General Conference, but women don’t speak at the Priesthood Conference.
E: And there’s just like so few women in leadership positions that high up, that if only women spoke at the General Women’s Conference, and you still had women speaking in the regular sessions, like every woman in an auxiliary position would speak like every General Conference.
S: Well yeah there are board members and stuff, it’s still not the same amount.
E: As like the Seventy, all the Seventies and things.
S: Yeah I don’t know. I mean I guess, see that’s where I think people start to get a little nitpicky. Yes we want to equalize things. People are saying, I’ve heard people say “Well the young men are always passing the sacrament, they’re high profile, they’re always involved in sacrament meeting. Where are the young women? They’re not visible, we’re not seeing them”. I don’t know, sometimes it’s just like, people are looking for little things like that to nitpick, like “Oh, there were three women speakers and two men”. I don’t know. But again, I’m very traditional. I’m a more traditional-minded person and I don’t want things to be unequal. But I don’t feel like nitpicking on all those little things. And I do think if you look at all the things they’ve tried to do, even I’d say in the last two or three years, they truly are trying to find, like someone said “President Nelson is shining a light in every corner”, what can we do to try to make things equal? So it doesn’t bother me personally that there are men speaking at Conference. And they were speaking to women. And they are Apostles, I mean I’m happy to hear an Apostle speak, so that doesn’t bother me.
E: So it took you about nine years to have me right?
S: Uh huh.
E: Did you ever feel pressure or judgement from people in your ward, or in the Church, because it took you so long? Did anyone ever ask you why you weren’t having kids or why you were taking so long?
S: Yes. Especially from the ward I grew up in. You know there are always those older ladies who are always gossiping it feels like. And so yeah, people would say things you know. Not so much people our own age, but older people. But yeah it did make me feel judged, but mostly it was my own, because that’s what I wanted so badly, it was my own feeling just feeling sad about it or whatever. But yeah occasionally people would make comments, especially older people. Which you think, that’s so personal, why would you ever ask someone like that?
E: Like you never know the reason.
S: Yeah, I even remember one time Grandma got really mad, because a lady from her ward, who was a really good friend of hers, but she said something to me about like being on birth control, like “Are you one birth control?” and she was like “I was so mad at her, that’s none of her business!” Because after a few years go by and you don’t have kids.
E: People are crazy! So what were your thoughts when you first found out you were pregnant with me? Were you scared? And then what was first time parenthood like?
S: I remember thinking, I felt, I didn’t feel sick yet, but I had this feeling like I felt like I knew I was pregnant before I even knew for sure. I just had this feeling I knew. And that felt really cool, just like this intuitive feeling. But I was scared because I had had one miscarriage several years before that, and I was scared for sure, the whole time. But way excited. But then you just are guarded, because you don’t want to be too excited. But once it became more obvious that it was going to work out, then yeah totally excited. We were excited to get stuff ready. But then things happen like you aren’t expecting, like I got preeclampsia and had to go on bedrest. And that was scary because that’s dangerous for the baby and the mother. And I felt really rotten, I mean just physically. So yeah it didn’t go exactly as planned, because you were born earlier than we thought and all that. But yeah we were just so happy to finally have our sweet little baby, and I was so happy to stay home.
E: How soon did you tell dad, like when you knew you were pregnant?
S: Well probably we took a pregnancy test at home. So we were both there.
E: What are your thoughts about having three daughters? Do you worry about us in a sexist world, or do you not really think about it? How do you think it would be different if you had three sons, or a mix of daughters and sons?
S: That’s something I’ve never really thought of, like do I worry differently about girls than boys. I guess that’s a little hard to answer because I’ve never thought about specifically worrying about you just because you’re girls. I mean I’m grateful that you guys have opportunities for education. When you hear about girls in other countries who can’t go to school or who are pulled out of school at a young age, I’ve always been grateful that you have the chance to learn things and have extracurricular activities and all that kind of stuff. But yeah you just worry about will everyone be able to find good jobs and be self-supporting? Will they find good men to marry? And just, we hope that you’ll have a happy life, that you’ll feel fulfilled and be able to have a family and all those hopes and dreams. In this life things don’t always go as planned. And it just feels harder economically right now, so that is a big worry, it’s harder for people to, even married people, to be independent, for a while. So I guess the economics worries me more than feelings of what gender you are. If that makes sense. I think it would be hard for either gender. I guess I’ve never worried that you will be thwarted in your jobs. I hope that you guys won’t marry a young man that isn’t worthy or righteous or doesn’t treat you well. I hope that you are treated well, respectfully, and equally.
E: Awesome, well thank you so much!
History Behaved: Storytelling Project 